Gabriel Flores 1:36
Hello everyone and welcome to the shades of entrepreneurship. This is your host, Mr. Gabriel Flores. Today I'm here with an Oregon entrepreneurial legend. Yeah, so I'm gonna say I'm gonna say legend. I think everybody in the Oregon entrepreneurial ecosystem knows this individual has come across this individual I'm very fortunate for this individual to be on my show. Amanda Oborne How are you doing?
Amanda Oborne 4:53
I am great and I'm very flattered. I don't think that's true, but I'm gonna take that legend title!
Gabriel Flores 5:02
So before we get into legendary speak let's give introduce the world who is Amanda?
Amanda Oborne 5:09
Oh my gosh. Well, I have been in Portland since about 2006. I think we met most recently when I was the executive director of the Oregon entrepreneurs network, which is really where I cut my teeth and getting to know the entrepreneurial community here. incredible, amazing ecosystem that it is. And most recently just joined idea ship which is the venture arm of a patent asset house, which we can talk more about but focused on startup venture funding for companies that are creating novel intellectual property. So can be a little geeky, a little fascinating. It's the world being created before it's launched into the public view and super interesting, actually, so I'm excited that you're, you're interested in it.
Gabriel Flores 5:56
No, it's super, super innovative. I really like innovation and kind of getting like grassroots efforts like seeing what's happening before it even happens kind of thing. And I feel like that's the world you're currently in right now. But before we get into that, I would love to kind of hear your backstory. How did you kind of get into the entrepreneurial ecosystem here in the Oregon area in new and what have you done before this new venture?
Amanda Oborne 6:20
Oh my gosh, it's such a long and winding road. I grew up in the intermountain west. My dad's from northern Montana. My mom's from Southern Oregon. My dad was on the faculty at Utah State University. So I grew up in a small town in northern Utah about 20,000 people and my mom had two sisters who lived in Portland and grandpa, my grandparents lived in southern Oregon and out on the coast. So every year I would come to Oregon and spend a lot of time here I sort of remember old Oregon even though I didn't live here full time myself until oh six. But when I was in the fifth grade, my family moved. My dad took a project on the East Coast and we moved to Philadelphia for three years. And it was such an eye opener coming from a small rural kind of Western Midwestern town. The diversity of people the diversity of thought just the ideas and the way people interacted with each other was it was like, I felt like I'd been dropped into another world really. And then well, I have to tell you the story of moving out there. We had a suburban my family had a suburban and so my mom, my dad and my brother and I all loaded up the suburban to drive across country. On my birthday, actually my ninth birthday.
Gabriel Flores 7:35
Oh, happy birthday.
Amanda Oborne 7:38
And at the time, we had a dog and a cat, a Dalmatian dog who had just had puppies. So it was mom dad, brother, sister, dog, cat and I think it was like a half a dozen little teeny tiny, six or eight week old puppies. All in the suburban driving across country with half of our worldly belongings, you know on the roof rack. I joke that I felt like we were the Clampetts driving into downtown skyscrapers in the city and that super that night that I had never seen in person before and my mouth is just hanging open and staring up at those skyscrapers and wondering what planet I dropped into because I just never seen anything like it before. But I loved it out there and spent about three years there. My dad finished up his project and we moved back to Logan. And so there I was back in high school back in Logan feeling like the world had suddenly gotten really small again, and I knew I wanted to go for college somewhere else and ended up going to Washington University in St. Louis. So as much as I thought I might go back to the east coast or or to Oregon. I ended up in St. Louis for four years. Had a great experience there lived in Europe for a while traveled in Europe. After college for quite a while and then eventually landed in San Francisco and worked for a digital marketing agency. Although it wasn't known as digital back then. The world was still pretty analog at that time. But I was working in databases and like doing statistics and anticipating customer relationship campaigns for big brands like Levi's at the time I got really into the data driven marketing world and the president of that agency prompted me to go to grad school. And there was one program in the country that was really, really doing in depth work in that kind of data driven marketing and it was in Chicago, so I went to Northwestern for grad school. And when I finished there then I joined the team of direct marketers at Intuit working on the QuickBooks brand. So the first 15 years of my career really was all in marketing related. stuff. And then like I say, in 2006, I moved to Portland and took a job as the executive director of a little trade association in the fitness industry. But mostly I was being a mom, I had two babies at that point. So I was working from home but I got really interested it was about that time that I read a book called The Omnivore's Dilemma by Michael Pollan, which really pulled the veil down about what the way the food system in the US works and globally actually totally blew my mind. I had no idea that that's the way the food system worked, and my parents at that time my dad had graduate or graduated. Listen to me. My dad had retired from university life a little on the early side. My parents had bought land in Central Oregon and they were opening a 100% grass finished buffalo Ranch on 120 acres. So at the same time, they were starting their journey in small animal agriculture, sustainable agriculture. I just read this book about food systems and become kind of irate at the way the food system operates. The Ag system operates this country and started doing some volunteer work for friends and family, farmers and other local nonprofits working in sustainable ag, which is how I came across the opportunity to join eco trust the nonprofit eco Trust, which is based here in Portland, but does work from Northern California up through Alaska in lots of natural resource sectors, including food system. So in 2010, I took the job as a sales marketing director for food hub, which was their online platform. So it was an innovation that they'd created. So online platform to connect farmers and ranchers and fishermen directly with food service operators and restaurant tours and like school food service and that kind of stuff. And I won't go into all the details, but I basically spent the next 10 years doing food system reform work and launched the red on salmon street that to campus on the central Eastside, which is where we met at that is yes, it was. So that was a project of ours and we launched an ag of the middle accelerator and just just didn't published a big report on food system infrastructure and just really went deep into food system work. But there was a lot going on, you know, a lot of things changing, including the leadership and ego trust and so I was approached by a local venture capitalist and I think a lot of people in the community know and and we went on a walk and talk actually just talking mostly about food system. He was getting into some food, food investing. And by the end of it, he said, You know, I'm on the selection committee for the Oregon entrepreneurs network executive director and I think you should maybe apply. And so I went through the application and interview process and lo and behold, November 2019. Right before COVID hit and sort of turned the world upside down. But yeah, that was an incredible experience. And that's that's really how I got to know the entrepreneurial ecosystem here in Oregon. And sort of jumped in with both feet really?
Gabriel Flores 12:59
Yeah, no, and then now you've kind of you're, you're not necessarily pivoting but you're moving on to a different venture right in the info ship fund. So let's talk about that. What are the idea ship fund? What is idea ship? Fund and what does it aim to do?
Amanda Oborne 13:14
Yeah, man, I feel like I've kind of gone into right into the belly of the beast by jumping across the table and sitting on the same side with other venture capitalists in town. It's a it's a venture fund. It's wholly owned by GTT group global tech transfer group, which is a big patent equity or patent asset firm. So they do brokerage and asset valuations and consulting and strategy for multinational corporations and their patent portfolios. And the founder Michael Lubitz. had a long history also doing startups you've been involved in like 15 different startups, and so partly out of just his own soft spot for wanting to support the founder inventor through the startup journey, and partly from all the GTT work and seeing what happens when a patent foundation isn't properly laid and what the ramifications of that can be. Michael had this notion along with a partner at Panasonic intellectual property Corporation of America, which was a partner of GTs. They together launched this fund in 2018, I think was the first fund. So they've made 70 investments now across two funds and I came on board to help deploy the third fund. Ideaship has a unique model. It's a patent equity fund. So what that means is, we identify young startup companies that look like they're doing something novel and interesting, and solving a real problem, and have a great team, and look like a good investment in all the ways that any venture fund would evaluate a good investment. But then we have this added layer of understanding what novelty, what innovation they're really developing and how they might capitalize on that intellectual property. We will help them we make an investment in the company but instead of that investment coming in as operating capital it gets deployed in service to building the intellectual property foundation of the company. So we help them document all their novelties. We work with whoever their patent counsel is to get their first patent filed. We develop a patent strategy roadmap for them, and a patent market analysis and in the end a valuation of the patent itself, all of which all really help them at each successive stage of fundraising, get a better valuation and ultimately a better exit. So that's what we exist to do is help startups with their patent work. And we get exposed to a lot of really fascinating innovations as a result.
Gabriel Flores 16:02
And why would you like you know, I think this is very interesting, because I don't think I've ever had anybody on here that really focused on that kind of line of work, but why I think it's important to also explain this to the listeners. Why is getting a patent lacking copyright and trademark. Why are those things so important for an entrepreneur? Yeah, well,
Amanda Oborne 16:21
that's one of the first things that an equity investor down the road is going to look for. There's they always have a checklist of, you know, the things that they want to see a company have in order to be really venture bankable and fundable, they're going to look for the experience of the team. They're going to look for product market fit, they're going to look for traction, they're going to look for, you know, these other indicators that the company is going to be a good investment ultimately. And one of those items is are they developing something new and novel and have they protected it in such a way that they can really own the business behind their business? So it protects them from competitive threat to a certain degree it keeps the company from having other competitors just copy what they're doing, especially larger competitors. In fact, if you write your patents properly, then you actually want them to be written broadly in such a way that a big you know big corporation might feel like they need to buy the company or make a play to buy the company because this patent is so valuable, and they may already be infringing on it. And so they need to buy the company in order to stay in compliance themselves and reduce their own. You know, risk mitigation. So that's what you that's kind of the ideal world is is and that's what makes ideas ship unique. Is that the the strategy that goes on in the thinking for how to build the IP platform is really designed to help the company capitalize on that IP as they go through successive rounds of funding. That's really what drives the whole the model that we're developing.
Gabriel Flores 18:02
You know, folks, I hope you're listening because you just got like some real free knowledge dropped on you're honestly thinking about creating a patent, but it in a broad sense makes so much sense when you're thinking of scaling and selling right? Because again, you're talking about intellectual property. So folks for intellectual property, these are your thoughts and ideas, right? You want to be able to protect these thoughts and ideas and you want to be able to monetize some type or create some type of monetization off of it, not somebody else, right? And this is just a form of protecting it.
Amanda Oborne 18:34
And there's a lot of people who think of getting a patent, particularly in the context of startup investing is really like it's just a box they need to check right you need to have a patent you need to be able to say you have a patent. There are a lot of patents that aren't worth very much though if if they're not written well and they don't really do anything to add value to the company over time. So I'm only I've only been with IDEA ship for a few months. I'm only just coming to understand this myself. I always thought it was a matter of like yeah, you build your moat right and then and then people can't access your you know, you have you you're legally protected. You got them if they if they try to use your innovations. or whatever and it's so much more complex than that underneath the hood, which is why having you know, a team of folks at your on your cap table and on your bench really have advisors who can who have that experience that you know a lifetime's Michael in this case has been eating patents for breakfast since he was a kid because his father and his family were patent litigators. So, anyway, it's just it's it's a it's a much more advanced and sophisticated level of understanding around what a patent can do for a company than than certainly I understood just from being an outsider in the ecosystem looking.
Gabriel Flores 19:50
You know, I know you've kind of only been in the the patent world in this new new role kind of a short time. But what would you say? I'm not sure maybe would, you know, have some ideas of when it's the right time to go for a patent and when it's not the right time? So maybe an entrepreneur is listening and they think you know what, maybe I should be going for that. When is the right time to move forward? And maybe when's the time that they say, You know what, that's not It's not yet.
Amanda Oborne 20:17
well, you know what, before I answer that question, it might be helpful to talk a little bit about when a utility patent even makes sense, sort of what industries because in a lot of cases, a patent doesn't matter all that much if you're in software or enterprise SAAS or you're doing an AI/ML kind of solution. Because if you're in artificial intelligence, machine learning and you want to file a patent, then you're probably going to have to expose the whole algorithm. It's sort of your secret sauce is going to get made transparent in your patent application, which might not be what you want. You might want to use trade secret law instead to protect that kind of an idea. And there are other places where copyright might be important or trademark might be important. So first, just to clarify what Ideaship's focused on are utility patents. So the industries that that tends to take us into are deep tech, cleantech, climate tech, hardware, medical device, anything where there's inventions. Think of having a picture of Einstein or some old school inventor in your mind, you know, something where there's something physical. So unlike a lot of local venture funds, who are not that interested in hardware or that kind of thing, that's someplace Ideaship spends a lot of time because that's where there's a lot of patentability. If you're in one of those sectors, we can add the most value very, very early in the process. So you have to be kind of beyond concept, there needs to be a "there" there in terms of a business; we look for companies that have registered as Delaware C corps and have some level of investment already, and we do look at companies that might be funded through SBIR grants or other non-dilutive means, or they might have some angel investment, but they're definitely on their way to getting their first institutional or financial investor. The reason for that is that as a strategic investor where our investment is coming in the form of patent services, companies have operating capital to scale, right? So it doesn't do any good to have a really hotshot patent or something special, but no money to build the business around it. So we look for companies that that have some level of institutional investment, they've got a team, they're building out a prototype and they're making some headway, but they may or may not be selling a product yet. There are a bunch of time clocks to keep in mind when you think about patents. So if you started selling the product already, you're on a really short timeframe. Most people are thinking about patents before they get to the point of sales, but you really have to be careful about any kind of public disclosures. So keep it stealth until you've got your patent strategy underway. We work with companies that may or may not have filed a provisional patent, which basically just sets that the timing. In the US, the first company to file on a particular innovation is the company that wins the patent - not that they necessarily get a patent every time, but if there's a competition, so to speak between several people working on an innovation, it doesn't matter who thought of the idea first or who did research first, whoever files first is the one that will have the best chance of getting that patent. So it's best to get a provisional in early so that you have that early date. And then you have up to a year after filing a provisional patent to get the full patent application. And oh, by the way, then it can take like two or three or four or five years to actually get a patent granted so it's it's a long process. But yeah, does that give you kind of the orientation?
Gabriel Flores 24:21
This is perfect, because I think I literally just had a conversation earlier this week, I'm going to connect you with some of our folks from the biomedical entrepreneurship program at OHSU. The reason for this is because we're starting to look at how do we help a lot of our providers in your point that create these new devices because they're in the healthcare space, or or sometimes in the pharmaceutical space? How do we help commercialize what they're doing? And these are individuals that are working with SBIR grants and so for those folks that might be unfamiliar, SBIR is a Small Business Innovation Research program, and they kind of help a fund some of these innovative ideas and thoughts and I think, you know, to your point, I mean, I think one of the things are entrepreneurs especially in the health care world, they know health care, right? That's their focus. They're not intuitive, and they're not really focused on they didn't really go to school for the patent world, right. But that's your area of expertise, right, where I think you can kind of really help bridge the gap in a lot of ways and help individuals understand. This is what's needed to get to that next level because healthcare space, I think it's imperative that nonprofit healthcare institutions begin to look at ways to kind of help support and commercialize the some of the thoughts and ideas that are actually coming out of their location because as you said, if they don't, somebody else will, and it tends to be a private device. Company. And again, the funds for these nonprofit hospitals goes back into the community and help support the, you know, the health care mission. Now, how about how let's talk about the Portland ecosystem, because this is you work a lot in the Portland ecosystem. How one holistically how big is this entrepreneur ecosystem that you were working with? And then what are some of the things that you've done some of the most proud moments that you've said, like, Hey, you may have heard of this company, or maybe even didn't hear about this company, but this is a pretty, pretty proud moment in the Amanda kind of world of entrepreneurship.
Amanda Oborne 26:24
Well, first of all, we just you just spoke recently with one of the portfolio companies that I invested in well here at Ideaship -Marcelino Alvarez and the team over at Photon Marine. That's definitely one of the proud moments for me I think Marcelino is a great founder. We connected also at Pitch Latino with you and and Marcelino. He has a really great team. Charles Steinbeck, one of the co founders, and I worked together at Ecotrust. So we knew each other from then. I'm very excited about the electric propulsion and everything that Photon Marine is doing, both at environmental level at an innovative level at a community engagement level. I'm super psyched about it and it's an awesome team, so I'm glad to be connected with them very proud of that investment. Another one that harkens straight back to my food system reform days. The first investment I made at Ideaship was in a local company called Canopii, which has developed a fully automated robotic greenhouse system. They are targeting to farmers who want to supplement their supply year round and have fresh leafy greens and produce available year round and protected from all the variable weather - which we know is probably likely to get more and more variable as time goes on. But I also think of them as potentially a really exciting food security play as well. I could imagine municipalities buying one of these automated greenhouse systems that doesn't require labor or any particular technical knowledge and just spitting out leafy greens in a neighborhood that may not have great access to fresh produce. I think there's a lot of interesting implications for food security ideas to come out of that business over time as they develop, so Canopii was an exciting one. But yet Ideaship has invested in 70 companies and many of them probably half are in the Pacific Northwest we do fund across the US. So any US based company is eligible for investment with Ideaship funds. But the Pacific Northwest is our our backyard and our home. So there's a lot of the research goes right into finding companies here
Gabriel Flores 28:47
and what's what is the plan in the backyard in the home in the next five to 10 years? What's what's the goal?
Amanda Oborne 28:54
For ideaship? Are you talking are you thinking more broadly about the entrepreneurial community here?
Gabriel Flores 28:59
Let's let's first let's go with Ideaship and then let's go more broadly.
Amanda Oborne 29:04
Ideaship is on fund three and I'm going to make 40 investments over the next 12 to 18 months. So I am hot on the trail of looking for founders innovating. You know those founder inventors that are doing really creative things and have this the chops to build a business around it and scale it. So that's going to be my focus for the next year. And then I think there will be an ideaship fund four and five so I think we'll continue to grow this model as as we fine tune what works for founders. So I'm excited about that. I think we're going to ride this economic wave that that we're all kind of on the cusp of, there's been a lot of talk about how unpredictable and variable the macro market forces are in investing right now, but I think our focus on early stage companies and innovation is is going to be sort of evergreen throughout whatever those waves look like. I mean, if you think back to the '08-09 financial crisis and all the incredible companies that emerged out of that time early stage companies and innovative companies from Shopify to the iPad to airbnb
Gabriel Flores 30:20
Amanda Oborne 30:23
So I think it's a great time for this investment thesis specifically, I think the next five years are going to be really, really exciting. And so I feel kind of lucky honestly, that I happen to jump into this role right at a time when, out of these crucible moments come true innovation, necessity being the mother of innovation, and I think in climate clean tech, that's going to be particularly true, especially with all the federal funding. So that's waht the Ideaship picture looks like. I think that Portland metro area is also having a crucible moment. I mean, this is not news, right? This every it's been on in the pages of the Portland Business Journal and lots of other media over the last several months and going back even a couple of years that companies are getting really frustrated including a lot of the you know, very successful OEN supported entrepreneurs. It was front page news recently that Revant Optics and Salt and Straw and a lot of companies are just getting fed up with the lack of leadership and visionary creative kind of solutions for for what Portland is dealing with right now. And I think it's incumbent on all of us and Stephen Greene and Juan Barraza and a lot of local leaders have really made commitments to double down and stay here stay committed to getting Portland through this time, and I count myself and ideasship in that group - we're not going anywhere. We're here and we're funding locally and and part of the community and want to be a force for for seeing the Portland metro area through the other side of of what it's going through right now. What do they say, if you're going through hell just keep going.
Gabriel Flores 32:13
Exactly. You know, and you brought up a great point. You know, there's a lot of there's so much innovation to be had. And I think that's why it's important to create this podcast episode of this podcast program in particular is to show the innovation that we have not only in the Portland metro area, but you know, around the around the United States, but primarily within that Pacific Northwest location because it's really important to understand that iron sharpens iron America's economy. was built on the back of the small businesses. And there's a lot of great thoughts and ideas out there that need to be shared. And even though that the pandemic was difficult, right, a lot of people closed their doors. A lot of these businesses were still open, right? They they pivoted, they pivoted strategies and went you know, to the virtual world. They had different mediums of trying to really kind of connect with their with their customers and engage with their customers. And so it's just trying to figure out different ways but honestly, you know, Amanda, to your point, I've never felt more engaged the last like year and a half with our community than I've ever had before. Because I think there's so many people and there's so many cool things like you mentioned with Stephen Korean and Wampa Raza, you know, who knows PDX with Chris and Vargas, all of these cool programs that are starting to come out because of the pandemic, right because I think what happened is a lot of people it exacerbated a lot of these needs that were unmet. And a lot of the people that you mentioned, they truly have stepped up and said, we are going to figure out a way to meet those needs, because that's what our community deserves.
Amanda Oborne 33:51
That's what crucible moments do. They pull people together, people pitch in, they double down, they really get connected to each other when they're when they're in it deep together. So, you know, by the time this airs, maybe we'll feel like there's a lot of light on the horizon and that we will have come through you know, another dark I don't mean to overstate it because living in Portland, you don't feel that at all in my neighborhood. You know, I feel the the sun comes out and the park is across the street and life feels good. I don't feel threatened. I don't feel nervous or unsafe. or unstable in any way and I dealerships offices downtown, and I come down here every day and I've never had a problem downtown, but I know that that that you know it's intense in a lot of pockets, both downtown and out on the fringes. So it's there. It's it's, it's something we need to pull together and work together to get through and with that kind of commitment. There's no doubt we will it just takes yeah getting our getting our sleeves rolled up and digging in.
Gabriel Flores 35:00
I agree. And you know, for the folks that are listening that may have not come up to the Portland metro recently. I would encourage you to I really would encourage you because a lot of these small businesses do want your support and it is very safe. I take my daughter down to old Chinatown. Often we go deadstock coffee, we go down that location quite often and I would encourage you to really come up to the community check it out. We heard it's really a safe certainly we have our pockets just like large other metropolitan locations do. But Portland is still beautiful. We're still the Rose City we still have the riverfront. We still have amazing human beings walking around town every day. You can go into scooter or bike, go to some coffee or wine, whatever you want to do. It's a beautiful spot. All I would do is just encourage you to as opposed to you know share in the means of what you may have seen. That happened probably three years ago, come up and see what's happening today because it is definitely a world of difference and and we are working our butts off to make sure it it is truly welcoming to everyone. And so again, everybody listening I encourage you guys please to come up to Portland please not only Portland but all all of our cities throughout the entire state of Oregon to really come support for those entrepreneurs really kind of doing what they can now. Amanda what would you what what should we be looking forward to as individuals for the next future? What are some of the products are I'm not sure if you're able to speak on this but if you are, what are some of the things that are in the pipeline with your team that you guys are funding that maybe we should be kind of looking out for?
Amanda Oborne 36:34
Yeah, you know, I am absolutely fascinated by the level of innovation that's going on in the climate and clean tech space, everything from you know different kinds of renewable energy, energy storage, recycling, batteries, even smokestack industries. That have already, you know, they've projected out oil and gas and smokestack industry industries that have projected out their forecast. They know that the world is changing. They are completely cognizant that their business models need to change and there's a really dramatic level of innovation and effort going into coming up with not just the big solutions that are going to sort of you know, make the headlines and be obvious sort of news stories, but all the component parts of you know, if you're innovating some part of a much bigger supply chain and cleaning up or re energizing or creating a closed loop system, sort of circular economy style for some component of a bigger supply chain. There's innovation happening at every single level. Particular like particularly in energy but also in recycling and renewables. It's fascinating. I'm learning so much.
Gabriel Flores 37:51
Yep, in fact, those innovators out there if somebody can figure out a way to either a carbon negative furniture, that's what I want to see. I want to I can't create it if this is my idea. I'm sharing it with you guys. Somebody out there create furniture I can put in my house that actually removes helps remove carbon from the air. Figure out a way to do that, right.
Amanda Oborne 38:15
Somebody grab that idea!
Gabriel Flores 38:18
Amanda, thank you so much. Now for the folks listening at home. How can they actually connect with you? How can they find out more about you if they want to connect with you either on LinkedIn or website? Maybe they want to find out more about ideaship fund. How can they do that?
Amanda Oborne 38:31
Yep, I'm on all the socials as AOborne so a-o-b-o-r-n-e on LinkedIn and Facebook and Insta and all the things. ideaship fund's website is ideashipfund.com and that there's a pretty good explanation on there about how the model works and there's also an intake form for founders. So if founders or would like to have a 30 minutes screener meeting and and see if ideasship can be helpful to them. The place to do that is to start is to start by filling out that on that form. We are on Twitter for as long as Twitter lasts @Ideashipfund. And I feel like a very committed and active member of the local economic entrepreneurial community. So I go to the OEN events I go to a lot of the other events in town so feel free to grab me if we see each other at one of those. Or get in touch directly and I'm happy to take a meeting and bounce off some ideas and give you some thoughts about whether there's a patent in your future as a founder. So yeah, hit me up.
Gabriel Flores 39:41
Yes. And I gotta tell you, folks, she's very approachable. I legit walk straight up to him like you were on my list of people to talk to you. When I went to Latin, the pitch Latino, I was like, We gotta connect the legend herself. Amanda Oborne, thank you so much for coming on the show. I really do appreciate it. I really appreciate you taking the time and sharing your experiences and knowledge, phenomenal work that you're doing in the entrepreneurial ecosystem. Continue doing everything you're doing. I really do appreciate seeing sitting on the sidelines watching your work, because even though I think there's a lot that you do in the community that people just don't see. I'm here to tell you that I am seeing it and I think it's amazing. So congratulations on all of your work for IDEA ship. Amazing stuff. I'm really excited to see what you guys have down the pipeline. You guys already come out with some great stuff. So again, so folks listening at home please visit the shades of e.com to subscribe to the newsletter you'll have information about idea ship on the newsletter The week before the episode airs the week the episode airs and the week after you can also find a transcription of this conversation at the shades of e.com Just go ahead and under the podcast section you go ahead and find a man his name and you will have the transcription and you can also listen to it there as well. So you can go and follow along it's kind of like a cingulum and then you can also follow me on all of the social sites except I recently retired the Twitter so I am on the tick tock instagram and facebook but other than that, thank you and have a great night.